If it's December 1941 in Casablanca, what time is it in New York? - Humphrey Bogart, Casablanca
A reader sent me this e mail:
And then it occurred to me that this is really one of those ‘confusion’ topics that whilst it usually gets addressed in a BaZi class, almost always is the source of great uncertainty to those without such an opportunity.
Personally, I agree with the viewpoint Joey has expressed several times that the debates over whether or not to convert to Beijing Time, World Time, China Time, GMT, UTC – whatever time, are just a WASTE OF TIME. It is nothing more than pedantic arguments disguised as academic discourse. It distracts from the fundamental subject matter which is helping people get the answer to their issue or problem in life!
Let me elaborate.
What is the point in converting the time back to whatever time it is that it’s supposed to be in China? Is there any affinity for a person born in the US to China? No. What connection is there to this person that requires the time to be converted to China? None at all.
So why should China’s time be relevant?
For that matter, the whole kingdom of China is one time zone. (it is also the case in Malaysia). Anyone who has studied the concept of International Time even vaguely knows that it is RIDICULOUS that a country like China, which is HUGE, has one time zone. Even Russia and the US do not have one time zone. So someone born on the same day and same hour in Shenyang vs Tibet would have the same BaZi technically but realistically this is not so.
But still we do not change it. Because we assume that synchronocity and affinity will appropriately reflect and correct the chart. (okay, a bit crazy-mountain-top-guru sounding but…it makes sense really if you go with the theory of the universe as all knowing).
Another point that I use when this subject comes up with the students at the Mastery Academy is this: in ancient China, how did they know what time it was?
In the day they had the sundial.
But at night?
Some dude would go around banging a gong or a metal plate and announce the time.
How do we know he was always right? What if he was stuck in the loo for half an hour prior to Rat hour and so only got out and banged on his plate, say, half an hour late, during which time, it had already crossed into Ox hour? A child born at that time would have Ox as his recorded hour in the chart.
Does that mean the time is wrong? And who is the person then to correct it to say, it should be Rat Hour?
The theory behind not converting the time is also synchronicity and affinity. Since that is the hour written on your birth certificate, and so, that is the hour that is used because you have an affinity or connection to that hour. The other safe assumption that can be used is that synchronicity in the universe means that if it was to be the case that you have that chart, you will have that chart. In other words, it was meant to be that the nurse looked up 20 minutes AFTER you were born, and wrote a time that was 20 minutes later, possibly carrying you into the next hour.
Side Note: The same situation applies to C-section births. This is why when a BaZi consultant selects a date for a C-Section birth, you do not give the child the BEST DATE. You give the child the date they should have, based on the chart of the parents’. In short, you can’t have a kid that you’re not destined to have. There are many instances of C-section births that have been selected in advance, and which were simply money poured down the drain because SOMEONE UP THERE refused to have their plans for the kid foiled (in other words, the date simply was too good for the kid!).
In Malaysia, it is common for some people in their forties to have what is known as a ‘delayed’ birth certificate and therefore a erroneous date of birth. This is because the parents may have lived in a provincial area and so took their own sweet time to register the birth. Sometimes, the parents don’t bother because they don’t think the kid will survive and only do so after 3-4 days and don’t really bother with whether or not the details are the same.
In the one instance I have seen of this, the person’s chart from the actual date and birth certificate date is not off by very far. It is about 90% similar in terms of how one would read the chart and the basic personality/nature of the person.
Again, SYNCHRONICITY and AFFINITY.
So why on earth is treated with such seriousness by some masters? Well, it’s a competitive business, the metaphysical advisory business. Partly I think it’s just business. Like BaZi charts that use Lunar calendars, or which plot strange upside down pillars or pillars that don’t exist, it’s sometimes an attempt at innovation to create differentiation or to have a USP.
Like painless dentistry!
My advice to clients is this: use the time on your birth certificate. That is what you have an affinity with and so that should apply.
From a practical reading standpoint, whilst the hour is important to help qualify certain matters in the chart (the quality of Fire for example), it is not impossible to read a chart WITHOUT the hour. Inconvenient but not impossible.
The Hour Pillar relates mainly to Children and Employees, and some other issues that are useful to know but not essential, but those are strictly speaking not impossible to decipher using the first three pillars alone. So 25% of your BaZi chart may be wrong – the remaining 3 pillars remain correct. You can still read fundamental matters like personality and character, and it has no bearing on the impact of the Luck Pillars, which are determined by the Month Pillar. You can still determine strength (if you want to). And you can read relationship to children and employees just the same from the three pillars (a little harder) using the Ten Gods.
So whilst some issues are affected, it’s not IMPOSSIBLE to read a chart with the hour being ‘wrong’ or assuming you don’t know, the hour not being present.
It’s not fun, and you do lose a bit of accuracy, but it’s not impossible.
So the bottom line is, don’t get Hung Up on the issue of the time. It’s only an issue if you don’t have a birth certificate, or it wasn’t recorded on your birth certificate – to which a consultant may still be able to guess-timate to some degree. We don’t need to know it to the MINUTE unless you’re a twin. And we don’t need to convert it to Brazil, China or Uganda time. Whatever time it was in YOUR COUNTRY of birth.
Tags: ChineseTime, Hour Pillar for BaZi chart, Converting to China Time, Converting to GMT.
I have a question regarding the daylight saving time. What if I was born during the summer in China, when they were using daylight saving time. Do I need to adjust one hour earlier to my hour? I came across this website (in Chinese) telling people to do a time confirmation before charting their Bazi. What do you think about that? and is it really necessary?
This is the website: http://destiny.xfiles.to/app/calendar/HourConfirm
@bella – no, I don’t think you need to do all this adjusting. Just use the time on your birth certificate when in doubt. I mean anyway, did they have Daylight Savings Time like 5 centuries ago?
Hello BQ 😀
This conversation is interesting to me. I have learned to read bazi charts to some degree over the past year. My day pillar never really fit me that well. It said I was xin hai. I did a time correction for china time. It put me as ren zi. Ren Zi fit me way better. It also made my month fit that time period of my life. I wasn’t DW during my 17 to 30 somethings. This new chart put me as EG month, IW structure. Way more sense. I was raised by my step dad. I got into some deep deep workings of things, moved all around for the experience. I can stretch a dollar quite well too, plus am a deal hound. I didn’t give a damn about money. I worked to live, not lived to work. Opposite of Dw in my original chart.. Feb 13 1979 8:10 am Vs Feb 14 1979 00.10 am which is the chinese time. I checked this after learning some zi wei dou shu. Since it recommended converting time. The teacher seemed legit. The reason this makes sense is that the orgin of these arts are based on chinese time. The calander is based in these times. The chi energies from above.
As above, so below. Made this make sense. The original astrologers had to use observation. They saw what was in the sky, and started crafting their correlations and art. So for the art to be accurate it makes sense we would have to identify what chi was on our slice of earth, as they did.
So in oregon at my time of birth. I had the chi that was in china at the same china time. Since time is based on earths rotation. Bottom line though. My first chart didn’t fit me. My second did. I also read a roommates chart with the correction. She was Wowed! I’m not the best at grammar.. No DR in my chinese time chart. But there is in my pacific standard time chart. I would like to hear your thoughts on this 😀 Btw I intend no disrespect in this reply.
I also intend no disrespect in this reply but I have not converted charts for years and have had excellent accuracy.
Typically where i get this kind of reply, I will suggest investigating the birth certificate date of birth first. Sometimes, as in Asia, we have misreporting because of logistical challenges (people born in the interior countryside for example). However, in the one or two experiences I have had with such situations, nonetheless the date of birth written on the document is not too far from the original.
Also, I find that a person reading their own chart, with very basic bazi knowledge, should not expect to have a high degree of accuracy, more so when they are trying to find out about themselves. And as for Direct Resource being absent or present, it has absolutely zero to do with Grammar skills. Further your comment that you were not DW in your 17-30 years – that may be the effect of the 10 year Luck Pillar. As for the way you describe your relationship with money, you have over-looked the significantly important absence of any Rob Wealth or Friend Star in your ORIGINAL chart.
Based on a CURSORY LOOK at your chart only without considering the LP, and based on what you wrote here, your original chart makes COMPLETE SENSE to me.
Best of luck!
Well! I see where this could go. Ty for replying. I will do more homework.
Thank You!
Well, I was born in the summer of 1989 and I also found out that China was using daylight savings time at that period. It does makes sense to me that one hour should be adjusted to our birth time if we were born during day light savings time because time is according to the position of the sun and earth. If humans changed the time to one hour earlier on earth it doesn’t change the position of the sun, and the sun would set one hour later and rise one hour later. For example, two people who were born at the rooster hour and in different months, would have the sun set at different times. The winter born would have the sun set right on their time of birth and the summer born would have the sun set one hour later. I’m still very confused which hour I should use. If I do the time confirmation at the website I showed you, my time would be the previous hour pillar. I really don’t know which one is correct, but I really don’t want to be using the wrong hour pillar all my life and get wrong interpretations.
@bella – today the whole of China uses ONE TIME ZONE. Should every one be adjusting their times to what it was in 1989? Further, Daylight Savings Time is a modernish invention (1895) – it was not used in China back in the Qing Dynasty when the current Zi Ping system of BaZi was used. Further regarding your observations on astronomy, as much as they are most likely scientifically correct, the Chinese system of astronomy that is based on the planets (the Heavenly Stars school) is generally not used for personal destiny analysis but for broader overall analysis of the fate of nations rather than anything else these days. In addition, when the Chinese do take into account the planets in an astrological context for the individual, ALL THE PLANETS not just the sun, are considered. As I have pointed out in my blog, this kind of discussion is fruitless and pedantic at best, especially if you consider the typical Chinese hour is 2 hours. In any case, why reference the time in China? Were you born in China? If you were not born in China, then what does it matter what is the time in China or what system they used there? There is no need to be confused. Use the time that is listed on your birth certificate and let synchronocity take care of the rest.
Well, I’m not saying that everyone should change their time to the time in 1989, but the people who were born in a country that uses day light savings time. And of course those born back in the old china days, all have correct birth times because there wasn’t any time adjustments made.Those people before never concerned about changing their hour because day light savings time never existed during their time.
For example: 2 people born during 3:15 pm . One was born during winter (when there was no savings time) and one born during the summer (when time was adjusted 1 hour earlier). The person born on winter would have their time correct which is the monkey hour. But the person born on summer would have to change their time one hour earlier because the country they were born on was using day light savings time. His time would have been written as 2:15pm instead, but because the country adjusted it’s time, it was written as 3:15pm on their birth certificate. (time is only adjusted by humans but the planets/sun remain the same)
I researched the Day light savings time in china, and it was actually used on April 16,1989 to september 16 1989.
My opinion on this stands. No change.
‘Thinking that Xin Mao really actually only started in April 2011. Feb and March basically were just confused versions of Geng Yin going into Xin Mao. Now, THIS IS IT.’
With regards to this, Baziqueen, I think you should then learn to respect that we simply cannot use synchronicity and affinity as thumb of rule assumptions for bazi. It doesn’t always work, doesn’t it?
I do believe, whether the Lunar or Solar calendar, which ever any bazi practitioner wishes to subscribe in readings, they have been out of sync for ages. There weren’t have been the need for the westerners to change from Julian to Gregorian calendar if no lapses were found, at the first place.
my 5 cents.
ManU Fan